诺兰 谈《奥本海默》Talk with Oppenheimer

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Welcome here on set, Christopher Nolan himself.

欢迎克里斯托弗·诺兰亲临现场。

Just thrilled to have you.

您的到来让我激动不已。

Thanks for being here.

感谢您的到来。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢您邀请我。

I got to see this film.

我去看了这部电影。

I will tell my viewers it is worth seeing, and then some.

我会告诉我的观众们，这部电影值得一看。

And so I mentioned your reputation.

那么刚才我提到了您的名誉。

I hope you'll pardon a simple question to begin.

首先，请允许我提一个简单的问题。

Is this a film about how we develop science and technology, the science itself?

这是一部关于我们该如何发展科技，还是科学本身的电影吗？

Or is this more a film about how people use it?

还是说这更像是一部关于人们如何使用科技的电影？

I think it's both.

我认为两者都有。

I think it's a film about consequences.

我认为这是一部有关后果的电影。

That's what I sort of come away from the process of engaging with Oppenheimer story for several years.

这就是我这几年来与奥本海默的故事打交道的过程。

I think it raises a lot of questions about the relationship between science, technology, the media, the government.

我认为它提出了很多关于科学、技术、媒体和政府之间关系的问题。

You know, the Manhattan Project was the first time in history that scientists were called upon to defend their country, to try and win the war against, you know, the Nazis, forces of evil.

要知道，曼哈顿计划是历史上第一次，科学家被要求保卫国家，并试图打赢这场战争，战胜纳粹和邪恶势力。

They did so resoundingly, but in doing so, changed the world and in ways that we're still reckoning with and always will be reckoning with.

他们铿锵有力地去做了，但在这样做的过程中，也改变了世界，这种改变的方式让我们至今都难以忘怀。

Part of my interest in the subject was really increased in sort of realizing that these scientists felt they had no choice.

这一课题吸引我的一些点就在于，我意识到这些科学家认为他们自己别无选择。

When their government came to them, when General Groves knocked on Oppenheimer's door, chose him to run the lab, the Nazis were trying to develop the first nuclear weapon, and so they really felt they had no choice.

当他们的政府来找他们，当格罗夫斯将军敲开奥本海默的门，选择他管理实验室时，纳粹正试图研制第一枚核武器，因此，他们真的觉得自己别无选择。

And so they went into it with their eyes open.

于是他们开阔自己的视野，并把自己投身于此。

It wasn't that they couldn't see that this was going to lead some very, very troubling and difficult places.

他们并不是看不出这些事情将会给他们带来的烦扰与困境。

They just felt forced down that road.

他们只是觉得自己是被迫走上了这条路。

And those are the kind of ethical dilemmas that Oppenheimer's story is just full of.

奥本海默的故事就充满了这种道德困境。

Yeah.

是的。

You are known as a master storyteller.

您被誉为讲故事的大师。

One of the biases of the stories in history is we know how it ends.

历史故事的一个偏见就是，我们知道结局会如何。

And sometimes that can lead us to the wrong conclusions for the future.

有时，这会让我们对未来得出错误的结论。

We say, well, that worked out OK enough, or OK for this side or this group.

我们会说，好吧，这种结果已经够好了，或者是说对这一方来说已经足够好了。

One of the things that I think you seem to do very effectively here, and people will make up their own minds, is you bring us into how it felt at the time.

我认为您做的事情里面，有一件事情似乎显有成效，当然，人们会有自己的判断，这件事就是您能让我们身临其境。

The stakes, as you mentioned, against the Nazis, the pressures of the time, also the shortcomings of the time and McCarthyism.

正如您所提到的，与纳粹的利害关系，当时存在的压力，以及时代所含有的缺陷和麦卡锡主义。

And you remind everyone that at the beginning, even the scientists wondered, well, what is the risk rate of incinerating the entire Earth?

您一开始就提醒了大家，连科学家们都不禁要问，焚烧整个地球的风险率有多大？

Yeah, they had this moment coming up to Trinity, you know, the first test detonation of an atomic device.

是的，他们在 "三位一体 "之前就有这样思考过，你知道的，原子装置的第一次试爆。

They had this moment where they realized they could not fully eliminate the possibility of a chain reaction that would destroy the world.

在这一刻，他们意识到了，对于会毁灭世界的这一串的连锁反应，他们是完全消除不了的。

And yet they went ahead and pushed that button.

然而，他们还是按下了那个按钮。

And for me, it's simply the most dramatic situation I've ever heard of.

对我来说，这简直是我听说过的最戏剧化的情况。

And I wanted to go into that room and I wanted to take the audience into that room to be there for that moment of extraordinary risk taking on behalf of the entire human race.

我想走进那个房间，而且要把也观众带进那个房间里，去见证代表全人类承担巨大风险的那一刻。

You know, they went ahead, pushed the button, and fortunately for us all, did not destroy the world in that moment.

你知道的，他们按下了那个按钮，但幸运的是，世界并没有在那一刻毁灭。

But what they did do is they changed the world forever.

但他们的所作所为却永久地改变了世界。

They gave mankind the power to destroy itself, power we'd never had before.

他们赋予人类自我毁灭的力量，而这是我们从未拥有过的。

And now we live with the consequences.

现在，我们就在承担着后果。

And yet you also show the question of who is responsible.

然后刚才您也提出了“谁该为此负责任”的问题。

Is it the creator or is it the the politicians or the political leaders who act?

是造物者，政客还是政治领导人？

Does this film for you answer that ultimately?

对您来说，这部电影最终回答了这个问题吗？

Or are you leaving that question with us?

还是您把这个问题留给了我们？

The film does not answer it.

影片里没有给出答案。

Oppenheimer's story raises all kinds of incredible paradoxical ethical dilemmas, moral dilemmas, crazy situations, very troubling questions.

奥本海默的故事引发了各种令人难以置信的，同时也是自相矛盾的伦理上的困境，道德上的困境，乱套的状况以及非常棘手的问题。

As I said, it's the first time in history that scientists were asked to work with the government to achieve something like this.

我说过，这是历史上第一次要求科学家与政府合作实现这样的目标。

And afterwards, that left them with a sense that they should somehow be in control of it.

之后，这让他们觉得，他们应该在某种程度上去控制它。

And I think Oppenheimer felt a responsibility, but he also felt that he ought to be included in policymaking decisions in a very profound way, as did a lot of the media.

我想，奥本海默就认识到了自己身上肩负着的担子，与此同时，他也认为自己应该参与决策，很多媒体也是这样认为的。

You know, he was on the cover of Time magazine.

你知道的，他曾经登上过时代周刊的封面。

He was referred to as the father of the atomic bomb.

他被誉为原子弹之父。

You can't trust the media.

媒体不可信。

If we've learned anything.

如果我们学到了什么的话。

If we've learned anything.

如果我们学到了什么的话。

We certainly can't rely on the relationship between media, politics, and science to produce something of purity, of intention.

我们当然不能依靠媒体，政治和科学之间的关系来产生一些纯粹性、意图性的东西。

And that's the problem.

这就是问题所在。

He was a very brilliant man who knew how to manipulate public opinion.

他是一个非常聪明的人，知道如何操纵舆论。

He knew how to play the game politically, to some degree, in dealing with the military and all the rest.

他知道如何玩转政治游戏，在某种程度上，他知道如何与军方或者是其他力量打交道。

But ultimately, I think he underestimated how little influence true science, the opinions of real scientists, what influence they're ever going to be allowed to have on policy.

归根结底，我认为他低估了真正科学的影响力，以及真正科学家的意见，这些意见对于政策的影响是非常大的。

So I don't know if you'll answer this or if you feel the film does, so to speak.

所以我认为无论是你还是这部电影，都回答不了这个问题。

But what do you say, or does the film say to someone who looks at this and says, well, the developer of the nuclear tech or today's AI tech isn't responsible?

但是，如果有人看到这一切之后，他们会说，核技术或者是当今人工智能技术的开发者对此就没有一点责任吗？您该怎么说？或者是在这部电影里会怎样回答？

Either we regulate it or we don't, either we have a working democracy or we don't.

要么监管，要么不监管；要么有可行的民主，要么没有。

And it's not the developer's responsibility or consequence.

这不是开发者该承担的责任或需要承受的后果。

Do you have a response to that?

您对此有什么回应吗？

Well, I think this clearly should not be the case.

我认为情况显然不应如此。

We do have something of a situation now, the reverse of Oppenheimer's story.

现在的情况与奥本海默的故事正好相反。

Because in Oppenheimer's case, you have the scientists who developed the technology desperately wanting to have a voice in how it's used.

因为在奥本海默的案例中，开发这项技术的科学家们迫切希望在如何使用这项技术方面拥有发言权。

The playbook from Silicon Valley right now is to go to the government and say, oh, we need regulation.

硅谷现在的做法是直接找到政府去反映，我们需要监管。

You should regulate us.

你应该对我们进行监管。

And of course, they play that game in knowing that only the people who've created such complex technologies can really be involved in how it's going to be regulated.

当然，他们在玩这场游戏时也知道，只有那些开发了这些复杂技术的人才能真正参与到如何监管这些技术的过程中来。

Yes, not exclusively, just as the scientists post-Manhattan Project couldn't weigh in on all the policy decisions around nuclear weapons, but they felt very strongly they needed to have a voice.

但也不完全是这样，就像“曼哈顿计划”的科学家们无法参与所有关于核武器的决策一样，但他们也强烈地感觉到，他们需要有发言权。

And at the moment, we're seeing the opposite from Silicon Valley.

而目前，我们在硅谷看到的情况恰恰相反。

I am reassured by some of the AI researchers I talk to now.

现在与我交谈的一些人工智能研究人员让我感到很放心。

They refer to this moment in time right now as their Oppenheimer moment.

他们把现在这个时刻称为奥本海默时刻。

And they are looking at his story and saying, OK, what can that tell us about the responsibilities that we bear for the unintended consequences of a technology that you put out there?

他们看了奥本海默的故事后说：好吧，这是不是说明了，我们要为新出的技术所带来的意外后果负责？

So they're at least asking the questions.

所以，他们至少提出了问题。

In closing and being judicious with your time, I have three sentences you might finish or you might go in a different direction.

最后，为了慎用您的时间，我有三个问题句式，您可以接着我的句式去回答问题，也可以换个方向去说。

Oppenheimer teaches us that... the purity of intentions can still have the most profound and negative unintended consequences.

奥本海默教导我们…… 意图再纯粹，也会造成影响很大的意料之外的严重后果。

Today, the threat of nuclear war is... the worst it's ever been and a constant threat that is never going to go away and needs to be managed continually and worried about and fought over continually.

如今，核战争的威胁是…… 有史以来一种最为严重的，而且是永远不会消失的，需要坚持不懈地去管理、担忧与争斗的威胁。

And something we've asked other people who've reached the summit of their fields, who are able to create in part what they want.

我们也曾请教过其他在各自的领域登峰造极，能够创造出自己想要的一切的那些精英们。

And we see that here in the vision, the strength of it, the cast you're able to work with.

在这里，我们领略到了您的远见卓识，看到了您的实力，以及您能与之合作的演员阵容。

For you, Christopher Nolan, being at the summit means...? Gosh, not feeling or realizing that you're at the summit.

克里斯托弗·诺兰，对您而言，登上事业之巅意味着……？天哪，那就是感觉不到或意识不到自己已经站在顶峰。

I certainly don't see it that way at all.

我当然不这么认为。

I feel like I'm in the foothills.

我感觉自己就像站在山脚下。

Being at the summit for you feels like the foothills.

对您来说，在山顶的感觉就像在山脚下。

That's a great answer.

这个答案不错。

And again, as a longtime viewer, really appreciate you coming on the beat.

作为一名忠实观众，再次感谢您的到来。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。